Chat 12-27-04
Posted on December 27, 2004
Welcome to the chat, Ralph Roberts!
[Seminar Room]: Shane has entered (7:54 pm)
Ralph Roberts: hi Shane
[Seminar Room]: Justin has entered (7:54 pm)
Ralph Roberts: hi Justin
Shane: Hi Ralph
Justin: hi.
[Seminar Room]: Mike Summey has entered (7:55 pm)
Mike Summey: Hi everyone!
Shane: Hi Mike
Ralph Roberts: hi Hike
Ralph Roberts: er… Mike
Mike Summey: I just spoke with Roger. He will be along shortly.
Ralph Roberts: I see they moved the trailers away from the prefab house by your driveway
Ralph Roberts: went up fast
Mike Summey: Really
[Seminar Room]: Steve has entered (7:57 pm)
Mike Summey: Justin, Shane, how was your Christmas
[Seminar Room]: TomB has entered (7:57 pm)
Ralph Roberts: wonder if those come wired and with inside finish carpentry?
Mike Summey: Hi steve.
Ralph Roberts: hi Tom, Steve
Mike Summey: Hi TomB
TomB: Hell all
Steve: Hi guys
Mike Summey: Ralph, I think they do.
TomB: Hello oops
Mike Summey: The holidays weeren’t that bad were they Tom?
TomB: Sorry
Shane: Great, How was yours?
TomB: No they were great. How about yours?
Steve: Traffic might be slow tonight because of the holidays…
Mike Summey: I’ve had a cold since before Christmas. Been nursing it, so I haven’t been out much.
Steve: Mike, thank you for responding to my email about “too many players in the game”
Mike Summey: Steve, when we think traffic will be slow we have a crowd. When we think we will have a crowd, only a few show up. who knows?
Steve: I greatly appreciate your input!
TomB: Let’s wait and see
Mike Summey: Steve, I’m glad you joined us tonight because this is the place to get answers. It’s difficult to respond to individual emails, although I do try.
[Seminar Room]: David has entered (8:00 pm)
Mike Summey: Hi David
Steve: I couldn’t make it last week because of Christmas parties, but I have been anxious to take part
David: Merry Christmass all
[Seminar Room]: Justin has entered (8:01 pm)
Steve: Hi David
Shane: Mike, I closed on the aparments that I had trouble with the Ins.
Mike Summey: Steve, go ahead with your questions at any time.
[Seminar Room]: jdupont has entered (8:01 pm)
Mike Summey: Shane, that’s great! Did my suggestion help?
Steve: Does anyone use one main real estate agent on a regular basis?
Mike Summey: Hi jdupont
Steve: I have one who is well connected and passes along leads…
Mike Summey: “main” real estate agent?
TomB: Steve, its ok to use more than one agent.
jdupont: Hi Mike
Shane: I actually had to go with a high risk company until I put the roof on
[Seminar Room]: Bruce has entered (8:03 pm)
Mike Summey: I work with any agent who wants to make money selling me property.
Mike Summey: Hi Bruce
[Seminar Room]: Doug in CT has entered (8:03 pm)
Mike Summey: Shane, that’s understandable.
Mike Summey: Hi Doug
Doug in CT: Hi Mike, Good to be “in the house”
Mike Summey: Doug, what’s the temp there?
Steve: I like using her because she passes along leads, but I feel like her splitting of the listing agent’s commission might hinder some of my offers
[Seminar Room]: Justin has entered (8:04 pm)
Doug in CT: Tonight it is the coldest we have had this winter. Currently 14 degrees.
Bruce: Hi Mike
Mike Summey: Steve, I wouldn’t worry about that. If you really want to bring her along, let her present some of the offers you find on your own that are listed with other brokers.
Steve: I do that now
Shane: I thought it was cold in Ky.
Mike Summey: Doug, we’ve already had two day in single digits here in NC
Doug in CT: You got us beat.
Mike Summey: It was 6 degrees about a week ago.
[Seminar Room]: sacredm has entered (8:06 pm)
TomB: Mike, do you still drive looking for property when it gets that cold?
Mike Summey: Hi sacredm
Mike Summey: NO
sacredm: hello
Doug in CT: I was strangely warmed however when I deposited the proceeds of my refinance.
Mike Summey: I wonder where Roger is.
TomB: I don’t blame you.
Steve: Roger is eating a leftover turkey sandwich!
TomB: Nice way to beat the cold Doug.
Mike Summey: Tom, some conditions just aren’t conducive to getting out and looking at properties, no matter how good the deals might be.
David: I admire a man w/common sense
[Seminar Room]: jeff has entered (8:08 pm)
TomB: Mike, do you ever look for property online.
Mike Summey: Hi Jeff
jeff: hi mike
Steve: TomB, I search online every day
Shane: I have a chance to buy a 4 br double wide 12000 offered 7500. needs closets, was used as offices
Bruce: Mike, in your book you discuss paying off your debt in 15 - 20 years. Any reason you don’t use 30 yr?
Doug in CT: I am going out looking tomorrow with our real estate agent — beat the cold with hot deals.
TomB: Steve, do you use realtor sites or FSBO’s?
Steve: www.realtor.com is a great site, no matter where you live
TomB: Thats the one I like too.
Steve: I haven’t found a good FSBO site yet
Mike Summey: Bruce, age has a lot to do with it. If you’re in your 20s a 30 year loan isn’t bad, but when you reach your 50s you’d like to get them paid off as soon as possible.
[Seminar Room]: sermiex has entered (8:10 pm)
Mike Summey: Hi sermies
[Seminar Room]: Roger Dawson has entered (8:11 pm)
Mike Summey: sermiex
jdupont: what makes that a great site Steve
sermiex: Hi All
Mike Summey: There he is!!!
Steve: Roger, glad you finally made it
Doug in CT: The Daws Man!!!
Mike Summey: Better late than never.
Shane: Hi Roger
Roger Dawson: Sorry to be late. Coulndn’t get my computer to log in.
Steve: jdupont, because its a close to the MLS as you can get. I can also search for properties in other areas
jdupont: thanks Steve
Ralph Roberts: Hi Roger!
Roger Dawson: Hi Ralph
Doug in CT: It is always the computers fault–but it might be a screw loose behind the keyboard
TomB: You can also check by price and research rental prices.
Ralph Roberts: fire your computer and log in yourself
sermiex: Sorry I missed the site - please repeat
Steve: Its also amazing what you can pull up with certain search words on Google
Mike Summey: I hear a lot of talk about FSBOs, but my experience with them has not been that good. I often find that they are people who are asking a price higer than an agents wants to list the property for so they put up a sign and hope.
Steve: sermiex, its www.realtor.com
TomB: I agrre.
TomB: agree
sermiex: Thanks
[Seminar Room]: Justin has entered (8:13 pm)
Roger Dawson: Sometimes FSBOs don’t have enough equity to pay a real estate broker
TomB: Buying from a FSBO does not guarantee a lower price.
Steve: The only good thing about FSBO is they don’t have a real estate agent pushing them one way or another
TomB: Sometimes its good to have an agent pushing a seller
jdupont: are agents good to work with or not ?
[Seminar Room]: Michele has entered (8:14 pm)
Roger Dawson: When I ran the real estate company, I had a “
Doug in CT: I have found a real winner of a real estate agent.
Steve: I have also found it easier to negotiate right with the source (the owner) than the listing agent
Mike Summey: I mentioned FSBOs because I know a lot of the real estate gurus are very high on them. I just haven’t had enough success with them to spend a lot of time on them.
TomB: Agents are very often more realistic than homeowners.
Mike Summey: Hi Michele
Doug in CT: She has about 30 years experience and knows what I am looking for.
Steve: That’s true, TomB
Michele: hello
Roger Dawson: Stamp out Fsbos night.” We had 200 agents calling every FSBO in our territory. Some of them caved in under the weight of our assault.
jdupont: how do you get around the agent
TomB: How can I raech her Doug?
Steve: I have one like that too, Doug. Plus mine owns rentals as well
Mike Summey: jdupont, why do you want to get around the agent?
[Seminar Room]: Penny has entered (8:16 pm)
Mike Summey: Hi Penny
Roger Dawson: Hi Penny
[Seminar Room]: Justin has entered (8:16 pm)
Justin: for some reason i drop and come back w/o me touching anything.
Doug in CT: She bought me the 4-Plex deal that I have mentioned before with a lot of “instant equity.”
jdupont: so you call agents to find a good one
Penny: Hello everyone!
Shane: Hi Penny
Doug in CT: TomB — Where are locatted?
TomB: NYC.
Penny: Hi Shane.
jdupont: justin … think of virus
Mike Summey: jdupont, I call the listing agents when I fond properties for sale. Sometimes I get good ones, sometimes I don’t. When I find good ones, I try to send them more business.
Ralph Roberts: hi Penny
Steve: Has anyone purchased a mult-unit larger than a quadplex?
Doug in CT: Too Bad–My agent is greater Hartford only. Unless you don’t mind driving a couple of hours.
jdupont: Doug I am on CT also
Penny: Hi there Ralph!
Penny: Hope everyone had a Merry Christmas!
Roger Dawson: Steve, I used to own a 16 unit and a 36 unit.
Doug in CT: jdupont–Where you at?
jdupont: thank you
jdupont: Grater HTF
TomB: I drive upstate NY anyway. NYC is too overpriced right now. Ther are better deals as you leave the city.
Steve: Roger, I am itching to buy a larger complex for the cash flow and to use as a springboard for investing full time
Doug in CT: Me Too, Have you been to the CTREIA meeting?
Mike Summey: The CTREIA is trying to work out a deal to get me to the Hartford area in May.
jdupont: no how do I do that
Shane: Steve, I just purchsed 22 unit in 5 buildings
Doug in CT: We will be waiting.
Roger Dawson: Steve, yes great cash flow with bigger complexes. We advise learning the business with SFR and then moving into bigger stuff.
Steve: Shane, was that your first complex? Did you encounter any problems?
Mike Summey: Roger, do you have any negotiating tips for us tonight?
Steve: Roger, I knew you (or Mike) would say that. I own five SFR and I think I am ready to take the risk
Roger Dawson: Steve, look for sound buildings in good areas, but that don’thave much pizzazz. You’d be amazed how a bulding goes up in value when you add a false roof and some eye catching pizzazz.l
Justin: What’s an SFR?
Steve: SIngle Family Residence
Roger Dawson: Single family residence
Shane: Steve my first was two 6 plexes side by side. when I bought the 22 One 2 br was trashed I did not know about plus 3 refrig was out
Mike Summey: Steve, it’s not about the risk…it’s about experience. Things can happen with larger properties that can sink you, but with a little experience you can avoind the pitfalls.
[Seminar Room]: Bryant has entered (8:22 pm)
David: Steve.. w/5 sfr, did you hire a magmt co or manage yourself?
Mike Summey: Hi Bryant
Bryant: hI mIKE
Mike Summey: Where are you Bryant?
Steve: David (close your eyes Mike), I manage them myself. I don’t trust the management companies in my area
TomB: Where are you located Steve?
Roger Dawson: With bigger units you are probably required to have a resident manager. You’ve got to get a strong one that you can trust.
Steve: TomB, I am in SC
Bryant: Burbank, CA
TomB: Are there too few mgmnt companies?
Mike Summey: David….Here’s my advice about managers…The do what you inspect, not what you expect.
Steve: TomB, no but I don’t like the way they advertise or handle maintenance issues
David: it seems that finding that co/mgr you trust is first b/c you can always find a multi unit that’s up for sale
TomB: Is it a lot of work to manage 5 SFRs on your own?
Mike Summey: Steve, tell them what you expect. don’t let them tell you what they will or won’t do. You’re the owner. They can get plenty of tenants, but owners don’t come easy.
[Seminar Room]: Justin has entered (8:26 pm)
Steve: TomB, not at all. I have “accumulated” somce great maintenance contacts and I feel like I can do a better job of marketing the properties
Steve: I also own a duplex, which is giving me the bug to step up to the next level
Mike Summey: Property managers buy owners from other management firms. I’ve never heard of the buying tenants.
Steve: Good point Mike
TomB: How long have you been an investor Steve?
Steve: 2 1/2 years
Roger Dawson: In CA you must have a resident manager in 16 units or more. but they don’t tell you how to pay them. Some couples will do it for half rent. If the wife’s a good bookeeper and the husband doesn’t mind fixing faucets and toilets, it’s not that complicated.
Steve: Thats a good idea, Roger.
Steve: I have exchanged rent for maintenace before and it’s worked great
Bruce: Mike, What type of ROI do you look for with your SFR’s?
Mike Summey: Steve, you may feel like you do a better job than a manager, and you probably do. The point is are you better off spending your time making deals or unstopping toilets?
[Seminar Room]: Michele has entered (8:30 pm)
[Seminar Room]: Bryant has entered (8:30 pm)
Roger Dawson: If you’re looking for a resident manager more real estate owners clubs have courses people can take and they get qualified as manangers.
Steve: Mike, I see your point and I am considering using a manager so I can acquire more properties. I spend a lot of time scouting though, not just weekends
Mike Summey: Bruce, I don’t sorry so much about ROI as I do about cash flow. If I can buy a property with the NOI and make it cash flow I feel like I have a good deal.
Doug in CT: Should I worry about an appraisal coming in too high?
David: Mike, I’ve been rereading your book and am confused about where the ROI on the downpayment is added/calculated against the desired bottom line of the NOI
TomB: Doug, on a refi or purchase?
Shane: I would think you would want it to be high
Doug in CT: Refi–It is up about $30,000 in six months.
Mike Summey: Steve, managing your own properties will gradually lead you into full time management with no time to make deals. Break the habit early. Get professional management so you can devote 100% of your time the locating more deals.
TomB: Take the cash out. Its never too high.
Roger Dawson: Doug, I don’t see a problem with that. Am I missing something?
Bruce: Mike, any minimum on the cash flow? i.e. 300 a month using your NOI formula?
Steve: I can see that happening Mike. Thanks for the advise!
Doug in CT: Thats what I did–It just seemed a little too good to be true.
Roger Dawson: Bruce, that depends on the property. No cash flow may be okay with a nice SFR in a good area.
TomB: The Northeast is crazy right now. Take advantage of it if you can.
Mike Summey: David, ROI is Return on Investment. That’s the return you expect on any cash you have to put into the deal. NOI is the Net Operating Income, what’s left after expenses and before debt service.
Steve: Mike, every purchase I have made has been on a 15-year note. When those mature, I can see myself pulling money out on a second mortgage. Should I just go ahead a get 30-year notes to increase my cash flow now?
[Seminar Room]: JackB has entered (8:34 pm)
Mike Summey: Bruce, if a property will break even in the beginning on cash flow, you are still paying down the debt and gaining the appreciation. The longer you own the property the wider the margin becomes.
Mike Summey: Hi JackB
Doug in CT: How old are you Steve?
Shane: I have been going with 20yr notes my bank would rather do 15yr
JackB: Hi
Roger Dawson: Steve, I’d say if you can make it with a 15 year loan do it. You may have less cash in your hand but the equity builds up so much faster with lower interest.
Steve: 35
[Seminar Room]: Justin has entered (8:35 pm)
Mike Summey: Steve, it depends on whether or not you have a use for the cash.
Steve: I could always find a use for it! LOL
Doug in CT: You got time to do a 30. But Mike and Roger they better stick to 15.
Roger Dawson: Good advice Doug!
Doug in CT: It was advice and a Jab all at once.
Mike Summey: Steve, as you get more and more properties paid off, it can become difficult to keep reinvesting the money without making bad deals.
Roger Dawson: When my father was 88 he took out a 30 year loan. Talk about your positive thinkers!
Doug in CT: Oh for the difficult problem of too much money
Steve: I use in-house loans from the bank (no money down) and they can usually only do a 15-year amm. So I would have to go conventional with a 30-year anyway
Mike Summey: I personall have always used 15 year loans, which is why today about 70% of my properties are owned free and clear.
Steve: Roger, I like the way he thinks!
sermiex: Please explain in house loans
JackB: Me too
Steve: Mike, that was my thinking too. I just makes that retirement at 50 little more attainable!
[Seminar Room]: Justin has entered (8:39 pm)
Mike Summey: I went for over 15 years without pulling any money out of my real estate.
Steve: sermiex, many banks will give you an in-house loan for amounts under $150K. BB&T is one I use.
Doug in CT: Mike, Then how did you fund those deals?
Mike Summey: I lived on the salary from my job and let the real estate money stay in the real estate.
sermiex: Thanks
Steve: Doug - OPM!
Doug in CT: But I want to know where the down payment came from.
jdupont: BB&T ?
Roger Dawson: Does in house loans mean that the bank will be holding the paper and not selling it offi in the secondary market?
Mike Summey: Doug, I either found deals I could buy with little or no money down or waited until funds built up in my real estate account enough to make another deal.
Steve: Roger, yes exactly
sermiex: Roger, good question
[Seminar Room]: Justin has entered (8:41 pm)
Mike Summey: Thats correct Roger. Banks call them portfolio loans.
Doug in CT: Waiting for funds to build up…might slow you down.
Steve: I negotiated this with several banks before I bought my first property. I have never paid a down payment
Mike Summey: Doug, sometimes thats not a bad thing.
Bruce: Aren’t 0 down portfolio loans more expensive?
Doug in CT: But I’m a late bloomer … I need superchargers
Mike Summey: I’ve seen many more new investors go under by trying to do it too fast than I ever have ones who take their time and make good deals.
Steve: Mike, I agree. THat will force you to be patient!
Doug in CT: Ok, pass me the geritol…I guess I can wait.
Steve: Bruce, not at all. As a matter of fact, the interest rates are competitive and you can negotiate many of those bogus fees out of the deals
Mike Summey: Roger used to make fun of me for not spending money.
Bruce: Steve, BB&T?
Mike Summey: BB&T Branch Bank & Trust
Steve: Bruce, they might just be here in the south.
sermiex: Is there a BB&T branch in New York?
Mike Summey: They are a regional bank.
Steve: It’s not the bank - its the banker!
Bruce: They are in the South, I’m wondering if that’s whom your using?
Steve: Find one who understands your goals.
sermiex: I’m planning to take a banker friend to lunch. Should I identify a property first?
Steve: Bruce, I use them and two others
Mike Summey: Sometimes you have to train the loan officers.
[Seminar Room]: Roger Dawson has entered (8:46 pm)
TomB: How so Mike?
Shane: what kind of cap rates do you like to have(minimum) before you buy?
David: Mike, I understand the arthmetic about the NOI but what confused me was your reference of how the performance of the downpayment affected your NOI.. ie. if you projected a 5% perfornamce of what you used for the down payment, how would it’s loss performance b/c it the down paymt.. be considered in the NOI
Mike Summey: sermiex, not necessarily. A good conversation over lunch can help you understand your banker and him/her to get to know you better. Trust is the biggest factor in building banking relations.
sermiex: Thanks
sermiex: Mike, what’s a good amount to have on hand before buying the first property?
Steve: sermiex, I share a lot of information with mine. I give them updated copies of my leases so they can see what kind of income I am getting off their loans.
sermiex: Thanks Steve
Mike Summey: David, if you put $10,000 cash down on a deal and want a 10% ROI on that cash, you have to reduce your NOI by $1000 because you will be paying that to yourself for the use of your money. Then you have to make the loan work with the remaining NOI.
[Seminar Room]: Justin has entered (8:50 pm)
Bruce: Mike, making the loan work for you personally is usually a 15yr. fixed rate loan, is that accurate?
David: thanks Mike.. I see the flow now.. just a fine print item that wasn’t clear and I hate learning the hard way!!
Mike Summey: I provide all 8 of my banks with a monthly statement showing each property, what it brings in for the month, what expenses are paid for it during the month and the overall totals for all properties showin total income, expenses, profit, depreciation and cash flow. I do this every month by the 10 of the month. My bankers all love me.
Roger Dawson: Internal rate of return (get money back on your built up equity) is a pretty complicated concept. Most beginning investors think “Will I be able to pay all the bills out of the rent?”
Doug in CT: Mike– do you depreciate contents?
TomB: Mike, how do you track all this info? Computer, bookeeper, etc.
Mike Summey: Bruce, not necessarily. I’ve used seller financing at favorable rates as often as I have bank loans.
Shane: Mike, I know you talk about hving the noi to cover debt service, but dou you have a # you strive to make beond the debt service
Mike Summey: Doug, yes. Appliances, etc.
Bruce: Mike, do you advise Interest Only? ARM?
Doug in CT: Who does that for you? A contents appriaser?
Roger Dawson: The IRS will only let you depreciate improvements. Repairs and contents are typically expensed out in the year of purchase.
Mike Summey: tomB, I have it all on computer. I post the numbers from my property managers to my system, which forces me to look at every expenditure every month, and then I produce a combined report with the information from all of them.
Mike Summey: Bruce, NO
Doug in CT: Mike, do you use Excel, or you do have a program you recommend?
JackB: mike do you like the 15 or 20 year fixed?
Mike Summey: I do it with EXCEL
Penny: Mikes, sermiex ask about what amount of cash do you recommend having on hand when starting to invest?
Mike Summey: JackB, I try to stay with 15 year financing, but occasionally I will go longer if there is a good reason to do so.
Roger Dawson: I hate to leave you but I’ve got a dinner party to attend. See you next week.
Doug in CT: Good Daws Man.
TomB: Enjoy Roger. Happy New Year.
sermiex: Thanks Penny
Penny: bye Roger. Enjoy your dinner party.
Mike Summey: Goodnight Roger.
Steve: Thanks for your input Roger
Shane: Thanks Roger
David: Mike, no expensive program, just income in and expenses out..
JackB: thanks roger
David: good night Roger
sermiex: Good night Roger
Steve: Mike, do you ever buy foreclosures?
Mike Summey: David, I set it up the way it will be reported on the Schedule E of my tax return.
Penny: sermiex, its something I’m curious about also. It always seems I never get to leave any of my savings alone. Its always something taking it!
Mike Summey: Steve, yes I’ve bought several.
JackB: Mike do you do any work to your properties or do you hire?
sermiex: Penny, hope someone will give us an opinion
Justin: Mike, Whom do you buy it from?
Bruce: Mike, thanks, seems pretty clear, 15- 20 fixed, no I/O or ARM’s. If the NOI works within those parameters then the next step is to make an offer.
Steve: Penny/sermiex, I had NO cash on hand. That’s why meeting with the banks on in-house loans is important before you start. If you buy under the appraised value, you should have no problem getting 100%
TomB: Sermiex, In NY closing costs can amount to $10,000 or more. Meet with your banker and see how much he/she will finance and that will tell you.
Mike Summey: sermiex, sorry I missed your question. I recommend trying to keep enough cash on hand to cover 3 months with no income. That may seem like a lot, but you can do it easier than you think by allowing your profits to accumaulate in the bank rather than pulling them out for something else.
sermiex: Thanks Steve - that helps a lot - I think I’m ready to start
David: time to say good night.. thanks all for sharing.. see you next week
Steve: I was talking about cash to make the purchase but Mike is talking about cash to cover for vacancies. That is important!
[Seminar Room]: Justin has entered (9:02 pm)
[Seminar Room]: sermiex has entered (9:02 pm)
Mike Summey: If you’re just starting, build up some cash reserves before you make your first purchase if possible. that will keep you from getting into trouble if you go vacant for a month or two or have an unexpected large expense.
sermiex: Thanks Mike - the next thing I have to get past is the fact that NYC is nuts as far as prices are concerned
Penny: Gottcha.
sermiex: But I’ve identified a few places that are not too far away
Mike Summey: sermiex, you may have to look across the river in NJ to find deals that work. NYC is tough.
Steve: sermiex, do the higher real estate prices in your area bring higher rents?
Penny: Thanks everyone. I’ve enjoyed, but have to run. Goodnight.
sermiex: Yes indeed
Bruce: goodnight
Mike Summey: I have to sign off as well. My dinner just arrived.
sermiex: Good night Penny
TomB: If not NJ, then CT or upstate NY.
jdupont: What I have been hearing is talk to the banker. Should I as a new inveater just walk in and sit down with the first Banker I se and start to chat?
Doug in CT: Take Care, Mike—Thanks for all the good advice!
Mike Summey: goodnight all. See you next week…same time same place.
TomB: Bye Mike
Steve: Thanks Mike!
Bruce: thanks Mike and the rest of the team
jdupont: Good nite Mike
sermiex: Another great chat = thanks all and Good night
Shane: Good night everyone and have a happy New Year
TomB: jdupont, call, make an appointment and meet with them. Tell them your goals and see what they say.
jdupont: Thanks Tom B
TomB: Goodnight everyone. Happy New Year!
jdupont: Tom should you do this with several banks
Doug in CT: Good Night fellow Chat roomies!
Steve: jdupont, networking is key. Talk to as many people as you can about everything and pick as many brains as you can.
jdupont: that’s why I am here .. thanks good advice
Michele: Good night everyone, thanks for the good info. Se ya next week
[Seminar Room]: Justin has entered (9:07 pm)
Steve: I spend a lot of time reading and online.
Ralph Roberts: Chat transcript will be posted shortly…. thanks to all for coming and please stay as long as you like…. good night!
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